Dose of Delusion
Two professionals serving up witty banter, unfiltered opinions, and contagious laughter. Join us in Dose of Delusion as we dissect life's absurdities and navigate the world with humor and touch of delusion.
Dose of Delusion
#46: Gay, Straight, and Completely Missing the Point (w/Guest host Max Van Woensel)
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Okay so Jay brings on his straight, suspiciously too good of an ally friend Max, and what starts as a chill convo turns into a full-on identity unpacking spiral.
They argue about Heated Rivalry. Max says it’s basically gay porn with a weak plot, and Jay’s like… no babe, that’s trauma, repression, and lived experience. Then suddenly we’re deep in the trenches talking about being closeted, dating someone who won’t claim you, and the emotional DAMAGE of being loved privately but hidden publicly.
Max tries to understand the gay experience in real time (honestly, gold star for effort), they get into internalized homophobia, growing up in different cultures, and why some people take 25 years, a marriage, and two kids to realize they’re gay.
Then it pivots into identity vs personality, gay mannerisms, and whether being “visibly gay” is authentic or something we learn. Light existential crisis, casual evening chat.
Welcome Back And A Moon Launch
SPEAKER_02Well, hello, hello, hello, and welcome back to Dose of Delusion. It is me, your host, yours truly, Jay. And as you can see or here, I don't have AJ in front of me again. He's still a little preoccupied, but I do have the great, the fantastic, someone who I met a little bit, you know, not that long ago, but it does feel like a lifetime. I've learned that we are a little bit of kindred spirits. Please help me in welcoming my friend, my neighbor, um, Max von Woonsel. Please tell me I said that right, Max. How are you? Tell us everything.
SPEAKER_01Uh you said it perfectly. Um I'm doing great today. Like it's a little bit cloudy. Um, just finished my work day. Uh I'm ready for the weekend. I'm not gonna lie. That's that's what I'm really going for at this point. Okay. I must say it. What?
SPEAKER_02No, I mean, of course, so am I. I'm very ready for the weekend. I have so many things to do, but I did want to ask you a question. What was happening today? So, listener, for those of you who don't know, we were supposed to record about 6.30, and then Max asked me to push it back to seven. Then he sends me a link, and I clicked on the link, and it was just like an empty NASA page. What was that about? What was happening?
SPEAKER_01Okay, so today, so I'm a little bit of a geek uh when it comes to like spaceflight and stuff like that. So at 6 30 today, they launched the first uh lunar mission since 1971 again. So we're going back to the moon. Uh, they're doing a roundabout there. So super epic. Like like hundreds of thousands of people around the world are what uh watching them um yeah, go to the moon uh for the first time in more than 50 years.
SPEAKER_02Now, how did I not know about this? That is a bigger question. That's it's probably the algorithms about social media that I built brick by brick that does not show me NASA, but shows me every real housewife's clip or some very attractive man working on a very tight shorts.
SPEAKER_01But anyways, although I feel like you know, like a big rocket should have found its way up onto your feed somehow, you know?
SPEAKER_02How dare you? Um, okay, Max. Uh so listener, the reason why I have become obsessed with Max lately is so we we met. Max
Heated Rivalry And The Sex Debate
SPEAKER_02is not a member of the tribe, and by the tribe, I mean those gay girlies, but he is one of the most alliest allies that I've that I've ever met. So much of an ally that every once in a while I question where that line is drawn, but that's not for me to decipher. But, anyways, I'll let you figure it out. But no, Max is uh one of the greatest allies, and we met recently. Uh, we we hit it off him and his gorgeous, lovely partner. Her name is Serena, and uh met a couple of his good friends too, they're pretty great. And uh one of the reasons why I wanted to have Max here was I know we're a little late to the show, but one of our first disagreements that we've ever had as friends was about a TV show. And um, Max, do you want to let us know what that TV show is?
SPEAKER_00What was our uh first disagreement? We have had multiple disagreements, I feel like on TV.
SPEAKER_02Well, don't spoil it for everyone. Um, no, so I was caught up knee deep, hot and heavy, into heated rivalry. Oh right, and I remember I had asked um asked one of our mutual friends, yes, yes, yes, who is a member of the tribe, if if he had watched it and he said yes, you said yes, you had watched it with him, and we started discussing it, and we have very, very different points of views on heated arrival. Tell me your disconnect there.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so for me, it was more or less a gay porno. I'm not gonna lie. Like it I don't know, like it it was a it was a fun show, don't get me wrong. It felt like a little bit Game of Thrones, but there the the the core of the uh the writing itself, I wasn't blown away with. I think there were so many different ways that you could go on to a story arc where I think sex was the primary carrier almost of the show, right? And the storyline took a secondary uh seat. If that was my opinion of uh heater rivalry. I think there could have been not to sound controversial or anything, because it's definitely loved within a Sarah community, but I think it's love because I think it gives more of a liberation of like almost these taboos that we've never been accustomed to seeing on TV, which that 100% agree with. You know, you don't see a lot of TV shows where a guy goes down on another guy, or you know, that they're fucking each other, where it's much more conventional to see that within straight couples. So they're definitely they cross some beautiful barriers, but for the entertainment purposes of like, I'm gonna watch this because this storyline has me on my feet, like you know, cut, you know, I didn't have that. I feel like that was the opposite of like and and also like this is what I was reading, and uh, I feel like there were like these two camps, you know. I'm yeah, it was just like I wasn't blown away with the storyline. And if you can give me an example of why you thought that this was like, wow, you know.
SPEAKER_02So I I I actually think the opposite. And you're not the first person to hear this from, and also I did hear your almost exact argument from another member of the tribe, uh, a member of the tribe, you know, very out, very gay. His name is Peru Flores, a comedian podcaster. I think he's fantastic. And he even goes one step further to say not only was it just a show about sex, but it's also a show about two, you know, white guys about sex. And of course, when it comes to the gay community and Caucasian men and, you know, a lack of representation for people of color, um, and to include that, you know, gay people of color. And yeah, you can argue that the Asian guy is Asian or not white, but at the end of the day, it's still fair skinned. Um, so he goes on and on about that. I I I have to disagree. I I I found the show. No, I I found the show so okay. Maybe if I were a bit, I'm stumbling over my words now. Yes, it was hot. All of the intimate scenes I think were were beautiful. I do think they were really well written. And in fact, one of the stories or bylines that I was reading about it was, and I forget which character it was, I think it was Shane's character or Shane as a character, but I think it was Shane, actor, who told Ilya's actor Connor's story like, hey, just just do whatever you want with my body, right? Uh when when we're getting we're when we're filming the scenes, that way it is as natural as can be. So I thought that was really neat. But ultimately, what I'm getting at is, yeah, the intimate scenes were were beautiful. They were a sight to see. Obviously, I was very, very into them. But maybe because I'm just a little bit older and have experienced some of the stuff they're going through, minus, you know, the worldwide celebrity of being a you know hockey player. But as far as the secret love affairs, the the hiding, the pretending you're something that you're not. I mean, yes, I mean, what what what Hollywood story has not depicted a heterosexual couple that did not include a Forbidden Love with the exception of Shits Creek? I mean, they they all do that. So that is a basis that we're always gonna see. But I thought it was still really well written. I thought the dialogue was great, I thought the acting was great. Um, I and I cried. I cried, specifically in episode four, like real crocodile tears. It was beautiful to me, anyways. I don't understand how people can just just discredit it and say that it was just an excuse to put practically gay porn on TV.
SPEAKER_01Honestly, uh, I hear you because like even you you explaining it, and I I think I was like talking to Serene about this as well, because the one thing that I did get from watching this, I think there are a lot of moments where as a gay man going through society, you know, like you you can feel very connected to these characters, right? Because it's about being well, like family issues or like not feeling comfortable in a like what it is to be gay in a hyper-masculine environment, like uh, for example, ice hockey uh uh team, you know, like I I do think they do touch upon certain elements that I don't think I was that aware of, you know, as a like as a uh like a straight guy, I feel like there's certain things where yeah, as you go through life, and that's where you're talking about because the forbidden nature of like almost every gay man that I've met goes through this reckoning almost with themselves, you know, like who am I, what am I? You know, like a lot of straight people don't have to really go through that same process, definitely not about their sexuality, which I think that's the core and the depth that that show does show for a lot of these um these characters. If I if I'm actually going back on my words, which I don't do often. So I do see where you're like where you're coming from there.
SPEAKER_02I don't want you to feel like you're going back on your words. I just want you to understand that there could be other different points of view. Now, you obviously now you are seeing it from the heteronormal, well, that was rude to say the heterosexual, a heterosexual's point of view, and I'm seeing it from somebody who has lived those similar experiences. I mean, I can say that I've been very blessed with my family, that you know, I never, I mean, obviously we all feel shame up until coming out, but once I came, what yeah, once I came out, you know, and never once felt, you know, unsafe or unwelcome or whatnot. So I've I've I've come from a very caring and loving family. So I guess that would put me on Shane's point of view with his mom, who's like being a you know, uh a momager, like let's turn this into money as soon as we can. But versus Ilya's
What The Show Reveals To Allies
SPEAKER_02family, you know, coming from that Russian culture, and you know, obviously unable to be gay. Now, let me ask you this. So if you don't know, Max is not American, right? No. Max, exactly. Where are you from? Tell us about that.
SPEAKER_01So I'm um I'm from Belgium actually. I grew up my whole life in Belgium um until I was like 18 years old. And then I came to this beautiful country to uh live the American dream.
SPEAKER_02How's that going for you? And don't answer that question, anyways. Um, okay, so being in being in Belgium, I'm I'm unfamiliar. I am ashamed to say that I'm not very well traveled outside of this country. Inside this country, I got you guys beat state for state. But outside of this country, I'm not very well traveled. So, how is the uh the LGBT community accepted or how flourishing is it over there, not just today, but maybe even back when you were growing up?
SPEAKER_01See, this is really interesting because like I feel like when I was growing up, um, my aunts were gay. Um, my mom had a lot of gay friends, so I was always exposed to it. However, going to school in Belgium and stuff like that, that I did not have any people that I knew that were openly gay during uh high school, like nobody. And I think there was a toxic environment created by like hetero, like you know, you slurs to like, hey, that's you know, gay or stuff like that. I think like that was a very big part of I literally I had had this conversation with my friends back home. I was like, I would not have wanted to be cut like coming out in the environment that I was growing up in. That would have been a horrible environment. I don't think it was an accepting environment. It was not until I came to the US and went into like higher education and went back into the masters that I really was like, I was exposed, like, oh sh shit, like they're all over the place. You know what I'm saying? Because you you would hear like one in ten, two in ten, and I was like, I've not met anybody of my age group, and then suddenly you're like, oh, I feel like half of my friends are gay now, you know, because like there's um um yeah, there's a growth trajectory. And I think like this is something that happens with everything. Like, I feel like teenagers go through this, and I feel like I don't know, like you can speak about your experiences in the US as well, because like I would love to hear that, but everybody's trying to find who they are, right? But they try to like by trying to find who they are, they also try to avoid like what they don't want to be a lot of times, right? So I think they put this idea of like gay, bad, you know, and even gay men or gay women do the same thing, you know. Like, I don't want to be that, so who am I gonna be outside of that? So I think a lot of people in high school put on a fake front of what they actually are, and they really only come to terms with that when they're in their mid-late 20s, you know. Like I think I was just like thinking about this right now. Like, I've only started really accepting who I am, like since the last couple of years. Like, it's always like a toxic struggle with yourself in the mirror, like, uh, I don't look like who I look, or I don't like who I have become, or my character is like in this one shape, I don't like it. But now I'm just like, fuck it. Like, I love myself, you know. There's a lot of things that are shitty about me, and I'm going on a completely different path than the question that you asked. But yeah, um, basically, my exposure to uh the LGBTQ uh community was very limited, but like afterwards it blossomed. And I think um in Europe it's very free, very loving. Like we've had gay marriage has been a thing since like 2002 in the Netherlands or something like that. So, like, we've been definitely front runners on a lot of these uh uh things, and like I said, from an upbringing point of view, super open.
SPEAKER_02Like, I yeah, it's it's I think uh no, I I I kind of gathered that just from history, the internet, social media, but I just want to see how it would be from somebody who's actually lived that before. So a lot of us who didn't grow up in the densely populated places, maybe like Miami, New York, East Coast, West Coast, you know what I mean, Middle America, essential people, essentially the people
Belgium, School Culture, And Coming Out
SPEAKER_02living in Middle America, didn't have those same, those same privileges. So circling back to heated rivalry, I I take a look at the storyline of Ilya, you know, who is Russian, and you know, I don't know the laws out there, but from the little that I do know, you you can't be gay, you know, especially if you are a, you know, the representation of the family because of your hugely successful sports career. So, you know, I identify with some of that, not the hugely successful sports career part, obviously. Um, but there was a certain time where I, you know, was worried about, you know, coming out, even though at looking back, I'm sure my entire family clearly knew that I was gay long before I did. Um, but then the reason why I mentioned that I was crying on episode four, if I recall, I believe episode four was the episode where Kip, the barista or juice barista, whatever you want to call him, and the other hockey player had their thing. And I was also in a similar relationship where I found myself romantically involved with a very wealthy individual who wanted me to be available whenever they wanted me, who always wanted me at their place, who wanted to go be out with me in public but not be seen with me in public, who wanted me to show up to work events, but not with him. And I I dealt with that for some time to where even our relationship got to the point to where we had considered marriage, and in the very last hour, I had to say, no, I I can't, I can't do this. You know, you're gonna go off and do these great things with your career, and I won't be able to follow because I can't work, I won't make no money, everything's gonna be in the backseat to you and your success. And I can't even be my true self because my mannerisms show who I am. So, because of my mannerisms, which are natural and I can't change them, I can't be seen with you. And so, in a way, I identified with those characters, and that's why I was crying. It was terrible. So, yeah, my point of view is vastly different from your point of view, or maybe the other heterosexual's point of view. Um, but I love the show.
SPEAKER_01Do you do you feel like so? Even that person that you um were with, do you feel that they were hiding some of their true self in order like you know what I'm saying? Like, do you feel like they they because like I I'm guessing you you exert some more gayness, you know, than the guy, like the person that you were with?
SPEAKER_02Or is that the well the individual that I was with was fully in the closet, okay, and pat and passable. Like if if you didn't know, if if he had not expressed it to you, you would not have known that he was a homosexual.
SPEAKER_01And was he different behind the door?
SPEAKER_02Like, no, no, he had very masculine, he had he had very masculine mannerisms. It was just who he was, you know. Every once in a while, I'm gonna I know the gays are gonna hate that I say this, but you know, I often would love for someone to be surprised when I told him that I was gay. Uh I I I think, you know, we were shifting gears now. There are a lot of ways that I have to prove myself amongst my friends, sometimes some fam members of family, especially at work or just in society in general, to where, you know, I have to say, yes, I'm gay, but I'm so good at my job. Yes, I'm gay, but I can fit in with the straight guys even better than a normal straight guy. So like I feel like I always have to go harder. It's it's kind of actually it's giving the racial topic of like you have to be twice as smart, twice as strong, twice as fast to get half of what you deserve, or I don't know, I'm saying it correctly, you know, um, to get half of what to get half of what they get. You know what I mean? Yeah. So I feel that be because I'm gay, you know, especially in the I shouldn't say male dominant field, but like, you know, amongst where I work, you know, it's I don't know how to explain it, but I because I'm gay and because I'm out and proud and don't hold any of that back, like I have to be twice as good at my job because I can't let anybody say that
Passing, Work Pressure, And A Hidden Love
SPEAKER_02I sucked at it because the first thing you're gonna do, or if they don't like me, they can't say that it's because I was bad at my job. You know, they can't say that it's because I was lazy or a non-starter or whatever. Like they're gonna have to come to terms and say we don't like you because you're gay. And no one can say that these days. Well, maybe these days they can, but you know what I mean? So like I have to be, I have to be in my and with my male friends, you know, I have a good amount of heterosexual male friends, and you know, I have to be twice as cool and twice as chill, and you know, all those things to make sure that my male friends, if they don't like me, it's not because they felt uncomfortable with me because I'm gay, it's because of something else that I did. So I lost track of what I was saying.
SPEAKER_01No, but I but I but I feel you in that, you know. Like I I think it's again, it's just like so crazy that your identity, like you you don't want your identity to define certain aspects that have nothing to do with your identity, but like you, you like they they end up doing it, it it ends up happening because people are bigoted, you know? Like if you don't do it in the right way, it's yeah, that's crazy.
SPEAKER_02No, I no, I get it, but I remember what I was saying now is you know, that guy that I was dating, he was very straight presenting, straight passing, or straight facing as they say now. So yeah, we were unable to to to be seen together because people would quickly connect the dots. And so that was when I was back in my hometown, it wasn't a problem. I had my family, I had my friends, I had my my little job that I was doing, my little you know, little gig work that I was doing. But when it came time for Me to move away with this individual, I said, I can't do it because I'm gonna have nobody and I'm not even gonna have you fully. So I had to back out because of that. So there was that was my little identification with um with episode four of Heated Rivalry. So now that I've explained all of that, do you see why I love the show so much?
SPEAKER_01No, 100%. Like that's what I'm saying. Like I think it's like, but it but it's the into intricacies, like that the per personable aspects of that show is what I think I lack, you know, to like understand. So like I'm just like looking at it as like um yeah, a regular show that I was watching, but it's not like I don't don't relate as much to the characters, you know. Like I don't understand what he's going through. I don't understand what it's like to be blackmailed by your own brother, you know, for your identity and stuff like that, or uh have your identity held against you, and that you just have to completely betray who you are, you know, and in doing so, you become toxic as well. Because like I'm guessing somebody who's fully in the closet, right? They're not always the best, like they're they're they're some of the most vocally anti-gay people that you know, like they're homophobic in their own way, even though they're full-on gay themselves, you know. Like I've heard some wacky shit being said by there's actually like a story, like there was this guy in uh I went to a master's program. I swear to God, I'm not gonna make assumptions, you know, but sometimes you can make assumptions. Like this guy was the gayest man we've ever seen. And I swear to God, Jay, one time I'm gonna show you him on Instagram, and you would be like, by the by the way he took his pictures, yes. There's like this weird, like you know, like what I'm saying, like super well curated pictures. And everybody knew it and uh during our college experience, but he was super religious, super religious, like to a different extent. And the the shit that would come out of his mouth against the gay community is like, we're not even talking about this right now, you know what I'm saying? But it was like the the thought, even that somebody would identify him, like he would have these weird relationships with women, not like it was it was an interesting experience. Uh, definitely something for another thing, and I definitely need to show you those pictures. I wish we could just like pull it up, you know, like how they have it in those uh podcasts, like you know, pull it up, Jay. Like, and then you would and the the audience should be able to make a decision, you know. But I don't want to out him either, so yeah. Maybe I'm gonna be wrong.
SPEAKER_02Thanks for sitting on my podcast setup, but we'll work on that anyway. No, actually, I want to get to I want to get to that one point. Now, the the truth is if uh if I were to switch to a fully different, like you know, virtual, I could definitely do that, and I think that'd be really fun. And I could just pull it up, pull up the staff, fact check me. But anyways, no, people like that, like you just described, it's very like the calls coming from inside the house, you know, like you just know, and sometimes it is safe to make the assumptions, you don't have to share them with anybody, but I think sometimes you you just you just know. And even for me, uh a gay man myself, I've met some people who have said, no, I'm straight, this is my girl, whatever, or even my kids. And I'm like, sure, Jan, like I got you. I got I I just did it for those of you who can't say a really obnoxious week on a wink on camera was terrible. But I was like, sure, Jan, I got you. You are what you say you are, and I'm gonna say what you say you are until you're ready to say otherwise. And a handful of those friends fast forward years later are like, hey, just so you know, bro I was gay. And I'm like, Yeah, I knew how do you feel about it?
SPEAKER_01I was gonna let you how do you feel about because like I have I talked about this with Serena, right? Are they wrong for dragging somebody else
Late Bloomers And Family Fallout
SPEAKER_01into that relationship for like 25 years, you know? Like, but but at the same time, you understand that they also are dealing with a huge mental block, you know, of like accepting themselves for who they are, but you're also taking a life of enjoyment of fulfillment away from somebody else as well at the same time. Like, I want to know what your your thoughts are on that.
SPEAKER_02So I I I tend to want to lean on their on their side. Now, if I were if we're to circle back, you know, 50, 60 years, I'd be like, oh, 100%. Like you had to get married and have kids, or you were going to be like, yeah, you know what I mean? Uh, but when I do see those stories of like, we'll say anybody in the last five to 10 years who gets married, has kids, and then says, Oh, you know what? I think I'm gay, and then you're like, wow, okay. I can kind of understand that. Because I think everyone's different, but I do think it's uncommon. I didn't realize that I was gay until I was in high school. So around age 14, 15, I knew something was was we was different because like I had all my guy friends who were just horny little boys, right? And describing all the things they would do and get their hands on their parents' magazines and whatnot, and that would get passed around, and then I would see them and I would get I get my hands on one too, and I'm like, hot, like I'm seeing naked chicks, but like I didn't have the same reactions that they had. So I'm like, okay, something's different, whatever. Thought nothing of it. Then fast forward, you know, I'm around, you know, 15, 16 years old. I realize I don't have the same infatuation with girls that my friends do, but I do think I might be a little bit bisexual, right? Then in 17 years old, a guy kissed me, and I was like, oh, like the second weakest, and it wasn't even a planned kiss, like it just happened. I was like, oh, 100% gay. Like I instantly knew I was 100% gay. But then, but then when I started looking back at my life, even as a young child, I'm like, oh, how did I not realize it? You know what I mean? And that was my situation. So I try to take that same thing and apply it. And maybe some people were just really truly late bloomers. You know, maybe they thought something was off, weren't quite sure what it was, were attracted to women, maybe not innately attracted to them, but did have the attraction. They knew that according to mom and dad in the Bible, man and woman make a baby. So I'm gonna make a baby. And then with the with the how wildly, well, I mean, I don't want to get into politics, but generally speaking, how wild, uh widely accepted the LGBT community has become in the last five to ten years, maybe they've realized, oh, this thing that I thought was off about me was my attraction to the same sex.
unknownThat's crazy.
SPEAKER_02And so I know, but it does, it does still baffle me. Like, and I think my my what I just did was such a very unique thing, and I shouldn't make that everybody's pass. But yeah, it does baffle me how somebody goes, gets married, brings up, brings children into this world, and says, I want to go be a gay personnel and enjoy my young gay life. Bye.
SPEAKER_01Did you what's that Netflix show uh with uh Kristen Bell? Um I'm just like Netflix show. Oh, the good place? Not the good place, it's a new one where she shewish in love with the what the Jewish one, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where she falls in love with the rabbi and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah. And her dad, her dad is clearly comes out like after years of being married, you know, but the mom is still in love with the dad, so they have a weird relationship coming up. But it's like interesting to see because the dad becomes completely self-absorbed at that point because he's finding himself, but he doesn't care about anybody else than his self-um, his path to finding who he is, you know. Uh just like I don't know. It I think everybody should come to terms with who they are, but it's still there's consequences to that. And like, but it's crazy to say, like, you can't live in that lie forever, you know, like like, oh, because you f figured it out after 25 years that you're actually gay. I you can't be like, well, you gotta, you're gonna ride the rest of your life not being gay, you know, like that that's not a fair thing either. But it's still it's such an impactful thing, you know, and it's it's I don't think it's like always as easy to digest. And it could be, you know, like for people, like like could you imagine you think like your mom, your dad always says he loves your mom, and then still that snap happens, you know. But I just want to circle back to to what something you said. When you were a teenager, like maybe this is a crude uh, but what did you masturbate to?
Teen Desire And Figuring It Out
SPEAKER_02When I was a teenager, I don't think I've ever been asked this question before.
SPEAKER_01Is that a weird question? Because like I'm just like I I told like I told my girlfriend that I still remember the the first video that I ever saw, you know? Right, it was like Mariah Kara touch my body, you know, like like you know, like touch my body, you know, and that that video like awakened a sexual demon in me. And for like that was the first time I and I was like, what's happening, you know? And after that, I was hooked on it. So I'm wondering, because like I was a little horndog all the way, like, you know, well, up until this day still, you know. So you're just like, like I just like wonder like my my fantasies and stuff like that were associated with like all the porn that I would watch and everything like that, you know, like it was heterosexual in nature, right? So I'm just like wondering, you're a horny teenager as well, you know? So are there like things that you were thinking of like like that maybe question because you said like you when you knew that like you kissed that guy, you were fully gay, you might have been bisexual, but was it like, oh, they're looking at that, but I kind of like looking at guys with abs too, you know, like or like a nice bulge in that underwear, you know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_02You know, I don't I don't I'm trying now I'm really trying to go back and uh open the archives of my my brain, you know, the things that I've worked so hard to put away. Thank you for that, anyways. Uh no, but I I I had a handful of girlfriends, you know, little flings and whatever, yeah, through, you know, you know, eighth, ninth, tenth grade, where you know, we would, you know, do things that little young teenagers shouldn't be doing. And like what they're females. So I I truly, I truly did not realize that I was a homosexual until 16, 17 years old. So I I don't think that I was, you know, fantasizing about men prior to that.
SPEAKER_01Okay. That's just like so interesting. Because like I feel like you were trying to go on that path then, right? Like you were like, I'm I'm on the straight path, you know, but then the right thing hit you, you know, like and that's what you were like, oh, this is actually how this shit should feel, like, you know. But did it ever feel forced to you? You know?
SPEAKER_02I don't think it felt forced. You know, my parents also were the way the way like the way my family grew up. I look at families nowadays, and some parents are very, like, they're very sex positive with their children, you know what I mean? They're they're very open, you know, they're very into their dating lives and whatnot. And my family just wasn't like that, at least through through me. Through my younger brothers, they were very into their girlfriends and they were at home for you. And for me, it it wasn't that. So the only, and they were also like, you know, cover your eyes when somebody's showing, you know, too much skin on TV, kind of kind of family for me growing up. So, really, the only what's what I'm looking for demonstration that I had were were my parents, who were obviously a heterosexual couple.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So I don't say it was forced or whatnot, or that I felt pressured, but it was just what I was, I guess, trying to minimum.
SPEAKER_01It's supposed to, yeah. Like every couple you see on TV, everything is straight. Like, there's no, again, what makes heated rivalry so unique as well is like it's still not like even though we're in like a much more LGBTQ friendly world for now, like you said, you know, uh, it is it's something that we can't take for granted these shows because it's like it's still not normal. Like, I'm not exposed to that, you know. Like we are not exposed to it like we should be. It should be a norm, not an uh an outlier, uh, a lot of times.
SPEAKER_02And I and I'm glad you said that because that is like one of my goals now. Here lately, in the last like five or six years,
Gay Mannerisms And Normalizing On Screen
SPEAKER_02I've really leaned into my homosexuality, I've embraced my effeminate mannerisms more than I ever thought I would prior to five years ago. You know what I mean? And I don't know if I've done that truly because I want to, or maybe just because like I gotta fit in because every other gay is doing it. You know what I mean? And I I don't know why I'm doing it, but at the end of the day, I I am doing it, and I'm going somewhere with this. What I'm where I'm going with this is so I've embraced these mannerisms, I've embraced these like my sexuality, and I I look at people that I meet, and I don't want them to say, get any special treatment be because I'm gay. You know what I mean? I want it to be so normal, I want it to be just an everyday, oh, your color is blue, your favorite color is blue, you ate tacos today. Probably shouldn't use that word, but your favorite color is blue, you had spaghetti for dinner, oh you this is your boyfriend, and you know, you're a man. Like I want it to be completely, completely normalized. I think that's one of the reasons why I loved the TV show Shits Creek. I mean, have you guys watched it? Have you watched it? Yeah, even in even in Shits Creek on the post-series episode they did when Eugene and Dan were talking about mainly Dan was talking about creating the show. He's like, I wanted to create a homosexual relationship that wasn't centered on a challenge or on you know a hill they had to climb to get there or a coming out story. I wanted it to be a relationship that was like any other relationship that would be depicted on TV. Thank you. And I say all this to say that I believe in that aspect where I don't want my homosexual homosexuality to be the identifier in my life. I don't want any special treatment. I want to just be hey, this is Jay, he's a cool guy and he happens to be gay. This is Jay, he plays kickball and he happens to be gay. It might be the gay sport. No, this is Jay, he's the best in his section at work and he happens to be gay.
SPEAKER_01Exactly.
SPEAKER_02But at the same time, I'm gayer than I've ever been because I'm leaning into my mannerisms more than ever. So I struggle every day with this topic of who I am to my core and who I want to be presented as.
SPEAKER_01That's so crazy. Also, like, yeah, and I have a question here because you took something out of like a thought that process that I have, because like there are gay mannerisms, right? And it's almost like, what is it the chicken or the egg situation, you know? Because like I could right now try, like, I could be like, oh my god, Jay, you are so phenomenal. And the way you speak, I like I could put on like almost a gay draw, you know, like going uh through my thing. Like, where did it come from? You know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_02Like, oh my God. I'm I just saw something on, I just read an article or let's be real, thaw tick tock. Um no, and somebody had said that they had they studied it, so that the gay lisp, right? Um, the gay twain that we have, the gay accent, people will often ask me, like, oh Ray Frame, you have an accent, and I just say, Oh, it's just a gay accent. You know, it's me trying to mask my gay accent that makes me sound like I'm foreign. But no, so apparently, from what I from what I saw is that way back in the day, like, because the gay accent, that gay sound is universal, it's not American, it's not European, it's not, you know what I mean? Like that gay accent that you hear, you can identify that no matter what language someone is speaking, unless you're speaking in tongues. But anyways, so they were saying that that was a way that way back in whatever eras or days that gay guys would use to identify themselves to other gay men, right? And so it was done on purpose, and then somehow throughout history, it has dwindled down to biology now because you'll see it. You'll see a five-year-old little boy who has no idea what gay is, and that motherfucker sounds so fucking gay. Fast forward 15 years, that's a gay young man. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01But it but it's crazy to me, it's crazy.
SPEAKER_02I'll have to find I'll have to find that article or TikTok and one validate it and see if it's even true. Fact check it, I should say. But yeah, I found that kind of fascinating.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, because like I I I was always fascinated by that because like it if anybody has a slight gay dar on them, you know, like the the the the way like gay men talk, and it's not all gay men, but it's uh like a vast majority, it is a quick identifiable, like almost like a mating call. You know what I'm saying? Like you're like, oh yeah, like but it like it it continues, you know, like ah that's that's fascinating. But also going back on that topic, like I think I I want to see that more in pop culture. I think we uh everything goes in a into a pendulum, you know what I'm saying? Like we were in a very conservative, like nobody else than white straight couples were allowed on TV, and now we're going to a full swing to the other side, right? And by doing that, like going that full swing on the other side, I think there was too much focus put again on what an aspect of you rather than who you are as a person. Like you are gay, that's fine, you know, but that's not what defines Jay, you know? It it has a huge part of the equation that makes out Jay, but Jay has parents, Jay has, you know what I'm saying? Like everything makes you you, and I think the best movies, the best TV shows make you feel that you're watching a human being with extras attached to it, you know? And we I know we just like said that also before like shits creak, but I think one of my favorite movies is everywhere everything, everywhere all at once. I don't know if you watched that movie.
SPEAKER_02Really? I watched that movie three times and still don't understand it.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so it's one of my favorite movies. Like I I like I I cried my ass like eyes off because like just like the whole plot of them, it's so absurd, you know. But again, it's like a full Asian cast. But did you ever think that like it didn't matter towards the story? It's an addition, you know? But they have their little they have their whole family story going on. And I think like as long as the like I hope we're gonna see that more and more is like the the core is the humanity inside the characters, you know, because you being something or what color of the skin you are or anything like that, it is it has a lot to do who you are, but it doesn't fully describe you. And I think like that's something that goes along, like, yeah, I don't know. I'm not really um making myself clear here, but I'm just like I'm happy how everything is moving forward. I'm just like happy how storylines are forming.
SPEAKER_02You know, no, I do think I understand exactly where you're coming from. And you are right about everything's a pendulum, you know, fast I mean, we're winding not too long ago, you know, it was very rare to see queer or color representation on screen, and now people are upset that in every single Netflix show there is a a trans person, like you know, um, so it it does go back and forth, which I appreciate it because I'm not gonna say I think it's a bit much sometimes, but I'm gonna say is like, hey, you know, at least at least we have it, and the people who didn't have it, you know, maybe, or the people who are upset about it, maybe just sit down like you had your time. And also, another thing that I use all the time, I use this phrase in a lot of parts of my life, not just this, but it's not pie. Like, more for them doesn't mean less for you. More representation for us doesn't mean less for you. More rights for us doesn't mean less for you. It's not pie. It's gonna be okay. Um, but Max, first of all, we didn't even get to anything else I want to talk about, but I could not be happier with what we discuss and unpack today. Maybe I don't need therapy after all. Maybe I just need more episodes with Max. Um, hey Max, it has been a pleasure. Um, I was gonna try to plug your social media, but from what I hear, are you on a bit of a social media cleanse?
SPEAKER_01I am on a little bit of a social media cleanse. I uh
Social Media Cleanse And Goodbye
SPEAKER_01I would consider myself uh a real holic, you know. Uh I what once I re-download it, I you do not want to see the statistics on my uh iPhone, like the amount of time that I spend on a certain app, you know, and it's just literally the the podcasting delusional, you know, and then I'm just like, what did I do today? Did I work or did I just watch six-minute clips about how somebody makes a little pie? You know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_02Like so that that reminds me of something years ago. Uh I I mean TikTok was out. I don't know what, but anyways, I was at work and our computers lock um after, you know, like anybody computer, it goes to sleep mode. And so I was really cool with my IT people. And then so one day we're getting new computers and whatnot. And I was like, hey, is there any way you can like increase the time um before it goes to sleep automatically? Because they think cuts out like every three minutes. And she goes, It's every 20 minutes, but I was like, 20 minutes. I'm scrolling on my phone for 20 minutes, like six times a day. How much time am I wasting at work?
SPEAKER_01I know. Anyway, yeah, but I must say it's been phenomenal. I I kind of I I love it. I it it's kind of it's really hard at first. It it's an addiction, Jay. Like, you walk walk away from it, and I I still like even on my laptop, I will type in Instagram, you know, it still pops up, and I'm just like, oh, why am I going here? Like, there's no point, like just refresh your mind a little bit. And it's been I I miss the the contact. I want to see what my friends are doing. I want to see that part of it, you know, but I can't control myself. So until that point, I'll be off for the next couple of months.
SPEAKER_02Uh, you know, I'm gonna have you back on eventually. This was so much fun. I really truly loved unpacking this with you. And uh, listener, you can find me at BJ Allday on Instagram. Don't forget to follow the podcast at Dose of Delusion. And also don't forget to stop by and say hello to my long term co host AJ. I miss him. I'm sure he misses us, and I'm sure he misses you. With that said, guys, take care. Bye bye now. Love you, bye.
